[timd]

Here is my current list as it stands:

HQ: Chapter Master Kantor-175

Troops: 10 Man Tactical Squad, Melta/Missile-175

Troops: 10 Man Tactical Squad, Melta/Missile-175

Troops: 10 Man Tactical Squad, Las/Plas-190

Elites: 10 Man Sternguard, Drop Pod-285

Elites: 5 Man Sternguard-125

Heavy Support: Land Raider Crusader, Multi-Melta, Extra Armor-275

Heavy Support: Whirlwind, Extra Armor-100

Total: 1500

I've really tried to make this a themed Fists list. I've enjoyed playing it, but I don't enjoy continually getting my shit kicked in with little resistance. I'd like to put something competitive on the table the next time I play.

For change, this is sorta what I'm thinking about:
1. Drop the Pod, run Pedro and the Sternguard inside the LRC
2. Drop the 5 man Sternguard squad. They're generally ineffective.
3. This gives me 160 points to put Power Fists into the rest of the army and get a little more effective in close combat.

Any other ideas would be greatly appreciated. Please, by all means, tear this list to pieces.
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[eric]

I have two suggestions-

1) Yes, ditch the small Sterngaurd squad.

2) Either throw the LRC forward or ditch it too. From Jack's post it sounded like you held it back, which is arguably a decent tactic in some cases for a regular Land Raider- but a Crusader should be rolling forward from turn 1. It needs to be 12 inches from a shooting target to be at maximum effectiveness.

Frankly, at 1500 I would question taking it at all. Two more squads of Marines will kill more and take more objectives.

[afeinman]

I agree with Eric 100%.

You could buy two Predators for the price of that LRC. Put in some jump-packs or other fast-attack instead of the 5-man Sternguard.

Also, flamers are way better than you might be thinking nowadays. Consider finding a place for them in the list. And ML are not as good (tanks are too damn durable vs. them, though frag got a boost).

[stormboy]

I agree about getting rid of the drop pod. I think you should look at some alternative ways to deal with vehicles. Powerfist-ing people might work - but I would look into more supporting firepower.

I know in our game the LRC held back because of the Deffrollas and the meganobs - but if you had sent it forward it would have decimated a squad of boys before it went down.

Instead of the whirlwind - look at a predator. The whirlwind missed a couple times and the other times only killed 5-8 orks. Not very effective. A predator would have put pressure on the battlewagons - which is something I didn't feel.

Marines have some strengths - one of them is their 24 inch bolters. Use them. Blast away. Focus fire. The thing that I fear the most is concentrated fire into one unit. Orks tend not to survive when several squads pound into a mob.
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[DAPatrick]

I like the sternguard, but maybe the second smaller squad could go. With Pedro I would be tempted to make the most of those extra attacks. What about some honour guard with a banner and a mix of weapons. I think those attack bonuses stack, so they would be hitting with like 6 attacks on the charge and have a 2+ save. Also, you can give them crazy amounts of close combat weapons. It would be a neat marine hammer unit that is not the TH/SS termi's. Keep these guys in the LRC.


Have you thought about using Razorbacks? Throw a squad of 5 Legion of the Damned into a razor back with twin linked assault cannons and people need to shoot at it. Also you could buy a twin linked lascannon razorback for the las plas tac squad, fill it full of 5 normal marines and sit it on an objective in cover. It is a fairly good unit, but probably will largely be ignored. the poor man's predator.

[sevellyn]

My two cents:

I think your troop squads suffer from mixed roles: One guy (melta/plasma) wants to be within 12" blasting away, the other guy (ML, Las) wants to be 47.9999" away, taking potshots at armor. IMO, I would EDIT: FUCKING MARINES WHY CAN'T THEY TAKE TWO SPECIAL WEAPONS IN A TAC SQUAD?

Nevermind, I don't have a clue what edits to make for viable troops. I stand by the mixed roles item, because so often when I play marines my opponents don't seem to have a good idea what their troop units are supposed to accomplish. They're better (IMO) in rhinos with short-range weapons, but I'd hate to force you into mech if you didn't want to be there.

Back to the drawing board with the Ravenguard too. Bah.

[RobPro]

Razorbacks for your combat squads?

[Exokan]

You've got 5 troops. I think you only need 4. I'd drop a marine Tactical squad.

I'd then buy one of the remaining units a Razorback. Maybe even a rhino. A little mobile bunker wouldn't be bad.

I'd up the 5 man squad of Sternguard to 7 (and then maybe reduce the other squad to 7-8 well). One of the squads could keep a pod, and get a few combi-meltas. It's overdone, I know, but it's decent. The other squad can hang out with Pedro, jump in the crusader or whatever. Might give the sergeants powerfists as well.

Personally I'd trade the Whirlwind for a Dakka Pred. Also I don't think I'd use the Crusader. When I think Crusader, I think Marine devilery system... a vehicle primarily for jamming a tough assault squad right into the heart of the enemy. You really have units in that role (unless you take up Patrick's idea, though I don't think Honor Guards are great either). You're trying to out shoot, and out tough your opponent. A regular Land Raider would be better... especially if you camp a 5-man-combat squad in it on an object and shoot with those lascannons. I could as personally recommend a Prometheus, but honestly you might need more anti-armor.

Pedro's bonuses don't stack. And while I've got a soft spot for the Legion of the Damned, they're just not that super good.
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-Mike H.

[Thunderjaw]

Unless your power armor is painted SW Grey or Red, don't run up and get into HTH with Orks...

I'll second some of the things that were said in this thread so far, and the main ones are basically as follows.

The caveat to the advice I'm about to give completely ignores the fact that Jack rolled EXCEPTIONALLY well, and you, for the most part, rolled like crap.


1. Play more games... you can't expect to win games with less than 6 played, especially not against someone like Jack who's played 50+ of them with virtually the same list... Jack knows his list inside outside and left to right, and he plays it very well.

2. Support thyself. Essentially what I saw were four points of death... one from the Crusader squad who died alone and friendless, one from the middle of the board, one from the far corner from the squad in the ruins, and one from the Drop Pod squad. Each of those squads essentially died alone and friendless... Give them friends...

3. Transports are your friends... A couple of Rhinos to tank shock Jack's squads on the fringes and force them to bunch up into nice flamer shaped targets works wonders.

4. Support your transports... Things like Dev squads full of Heavy Bolters, or Predator Destructors (in pairs!) make things like Lootas disappear... and if they don't, you can always drop a pod of Sternguard down on them and vaporize from point blank range.

5. Define roles for the army. That Sternguard squad in a pod is what I call an assassination unit... they're there to kill something important and probably (but not always) die. Whether it's dropping down and blasting a Daemon Prince with 2+ wounding ammo or popping dragon fire rounds into the Lootas to slaughter them with no cover, they have a role and should be defined and using that role.

6. Not everything has to live, nor does it have to fight... Sometimes you can hold things back from the center and do a late rush to contest an objective, or throw a unit to certain death to delay the enemy or pull them OFF an objective... don't be afraid to pay a price with things, but make sure it's a price worth paying.

7. Know your army. This goes back to point number one... you had one drop pod in the list. Space Marine Drop Pod Assault rules say take all the Drop Pods in your army, divide them by two and round up. That many Pods come in AUTOMATICALLY on turn one... so Pedro and Friends should have popped in immediately, with no rolls for reserves. I wasn't around at the start of the game or I'd of pointed it out, and when I realized it much later I didn't have the heart to mention it.

Here's a list I've used to great effect with vanilla marines... it's subtle and doesn't play like a sledgehammer, but outside of Vulkan, Vanilla's don't have many hammer varients. They're more rapier styled these days, though some lists are beefy enough to be cutlass quality.

HQ - Cato Sicarius

HQ - Epistolary Libby w/ Null Zone and Gate

TR - 10 Marines in a rhino with Flamer, MM, and Powerfist (this squad outflanks thanks to Sicarius' rules

TR - 10 Marines in a Rhino with Flamer, Missle and Powerfist

TR - 10 Marines w/ Melta and Missle and Powerfist (these go in Land Raider)

TR - 10 Scouts w/ 5 Sniper Rifles, Missle (These combat squad, 5 in cover, 5 infiltrating for side shots)

EL - 8 Sternguard in Pod w/ 2 Combi Meltas (Libby rides with them)

HS - Predator Destructor with TL AC and 2 HB's
HS - Predator Destructor with TL AC and 2 HB's
HS - Land Raider

That list is actually really similar to your list, but it's got a lot more synergy and support.

Your list isn't far off, it just needs a little tweaking and most importantly, some playing time. 5th Edition has a lot more tactical options in it with Random Game Length and the ability to reserve anything... it takes some time to adjust.

Keep at it, and don't be discouraged!
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Respectfully,

Brad

[Thunderjaw]

Oh... and against most armies...

Try and go SECOND.
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Respectfully,

Brad

[timd]

I've made a number of changes. Here's what I've come up with:

1500 Crimson Fists

-Pedro Kantor-175

-10 Man Tac Squad, Flamer, Heavy Bolter, Rhino, Power Fist-230

-10 Man Tac Squad, Melta, Plasma Cannon, Power Fist, Rhino-240

-5 Man Tac Squad, RazorBack, Power Weapon-145

-10 Man Sternguard Squad, x2 Combi-Melta, Power Fist-285

-Land Raider Crusader, Multi-Melta-260

-Predator, LasCannon Sponsons, Twin-Linked LasCannon Turret-165

Total: 1500/1500

As we've determined, I'm not very savvy tactically. The way I envision this army is running the LRC and two Rhinos into decent firing positions. The two Tac Squads focus on taking out the enemy Troops, while Kantor and the Sternguard go for the kill on something big. Obviously the Predator hangs back and focuses on the enemy armor, and if the LRC manages to survive past the drop off, it'll provide support fire as well.

The 5 Man Squad in the RazorBack is going to be used to camp on an objective. I took the Razorback and Power Weapon to at least be competitive (in theory) against anything that manages to break through the forward tank line.

Obviously experience is the only thing that can determine whether or not these tactics and this list will work, but this is the start.

Thoughts?
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[Exokan]

What are you dropping with the LRC? If it's the Sternguard, then they're a waste of points in my opinion. They should be shooting as many turns as possible. Them Poding wasn't necessarily a poor idea, as long as it was done correctly and you had maybe another dropping unit as well (Maybe the smaller Sternguard?)

Dunno. The list is a more efficient in a few places for sure.
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-Mike H.

[timd]

The Land Raider drives Pedro and the Sternguard. The idea is to keep them in the LRC for one, maybe two turns, just to get close enough to Rapid Fire, then assault with the extra attack from Kantor.

Their mission is to take down one really big thing. But I figured if I put them in the LRC, and brought Pedro plus the Power Fist plus the two Combi-Meltas, they might be able to waste two big things.
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[RobPro]

Wouldn't Cantor still give the extra attack to, say, Thunderhammer/StormShield Terminators?

[Drool_bucket]

Well, I think the list looks decent. It can be hard to judge marine armies sometimes, cause 10 marines written down doesn't always seem great, then when they are on the table you realize that its pretty impressive. Except when an Executioner shows up...

I think you should run with what you have and play half a dozen games with them, that's usually the key.

I'd also consider bulking up to 1750 which is our average game at the Eagles. At that point you're talking about a few more pieces (maybe a Techmarine with that big gun thing, it seems popular online and would probably work at the Eagles with all the IG and Orks running around)

Plus, at 1750, the LRC won't seem so massive in overall army points.
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TAFK